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I wouldn't own up to it – it is an unfounded fallcy of the worst order. There is absolutely no evidence that people who pray are less likely to act for others! These are not mutually exclusive. You can pray and act. I would suggest that both are positive ways to respond to the needs of others. In Australia, 80% of charitable organisations are religious and 90% of overall giving is to these organisations. A tiny percentage of charitable organisations are humanist/atheist in motive. Good reason? These views don't motivate people to give.
Oh – and I posted this in reply David Rietveld's (Wellspring Anglican church in Tasmania) extraordinary claims regarding charity as a result of the Victorian bush fires.
"It is true that Christian organisations have launched appeals and that this is the right thing to do, however to claim that Christians are the most generous and philanthropic citizens is an extraordinary claim. I wonder if Mr. Rietveld has verifiable data to back up his claim?
At the I write this article, the organisation that has collect the most funds for the Victorian bushfire victims is the Red Cross, who managed to collect over $50 million dollars in less than 4 days. Current estimates place the total donations are around $100 million dollars – all to an organisation which “makes no discrimination as to nationality, race, religious beliefs, class or political opinions.”.
This is in stark contrast to St. Vincent De Paul which “is a lay Catholic organisation that aspires to live the gospel message by serving Christ“, and The Salvation Army whose “message is based on the Bible. Its ministry is motivated by love for God. Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ“.
Of course, it may be argued that it is primarily Christians that give to all of these organisations (the Red Cross included), but again without hard evidence to back this up it is difficult to tell."
If a charity is religious by nature or origin, I won't give to it. Period. Love the reaction when Salvos etc ring up after my money and I say "Sorry I don't support religious organisations". They do not know how to react
And Matt I think you have missed the point of the diagram. It is simply saying that prayer alone will do nothing. But, we all know, in the real world, you don't get something from nothing, do we…. A single pair of hands working will achieve infinitely more than a million hands clasped in prayer.
I just wanted to post to say that I completely disagree. Prayer is the starting point off of which any action I take comes from. It's the only way to make sure that what I'm doing is what God's will is. And that is the #1 priority. Not mine, but his. Prayer allows for the opportunity for action to be taken, but misguided action (those without prayer) can cause more harm than good.
So you have no will of your own, and if you do, you don't trust it. But in reality you do, of course you have your own will, you just credit it to an imaginary friend. I guess that relieves you from any responsibility for poor choices. "God works in mysterious ways", "Its all part of gods plan" and whatever other excuse for poor decision making you care to make….
I would tend to agree with Kevin, but I think what you are calling prayer, I would call thinking. I would think before taking actions; if you don't think about it and research it, you can do some serious harm.
I see the image as meaning that prayer alone does nothing. Actions make the difference, not the prayer.
You can start by praying if you like, but it's the action that has an effect. Prayer alone has none. It does not work. God is either not listening to people's prayer, or he doesn't care, or he doesn't exist.
#1 by Wellington Grey on April 19, 2009 - 3:20 pm
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Thanks for posting my image, but would you mind linking to the page where it came from: http://miscellanea.wellingtongrey.net/2008/12/01/...
#2 by askegg on April 19, 2009 - 9:03 pm
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Now that I know where is originated – no problem at all !
#3 by Matt on October 20, 2009 - 5:55 am
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I wouldn't own up to it – it is an unfounded fallcy of the worst order. There is absolutely no evidence that people who pray are less likely to act for others! These are not mutually exclusive. You can pray and act. I would suggest that both are positive ways to respond to the needs of others. In Australia, 80% of charitable organisations are religious and 90% of overall giving is to these organisations. A tiny percentage of charitable organisations are humanist/atheist in motive. Good reason? These views don't motivate people to give.
#4 by askegg on October 20, 2009 - 6:38 am
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Who said anything about prayer and it's correlation with action? It's the action that actually helps – prayer just makes you feel good.
The biggest charity in Australia is the Red Cross – an entirely secular organisation without any religious, political, or national ties.
I see by your email address you are the reverend at my old school.
#5 by askegg on October 20, 2009 - 6:43 am
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Oh – and I posted this in reply David Rietveld's (Wellspring Anglican church in Tasmania) extraordinary claims regarding charity as a result of the Victorian bush fires.
"It is true that Christian organisations have launched appeals and that this is the right thing to do, however to claim that Christians are the most generous and philanthropic citizens is an extraordinary claim. I wonder if Mr. Rietveld has verifiable data to back up his claim?
At the I write this article, the organisation that has collect the most funds for the Victorian bushfire victims is the Red Cross, who managed to collect over $50 million dollars in less than 4 days. Current estimates place the total donations are around $100 million dollars – all to an organisation which “makes no discrimination as to nationality, race, religious beliefs, class or political opinions.”.
This is in stark contrast to St. Vincent De Paul which “is a lay Catholic organisation that aspires to live the gospel message by serving Christ“, and The Salvation Army whose “message is based on the Bible. Its ministry is motivated by love for God. Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ“.
Of course, it may be argued that it is primarily Christians that give to all of these organisations (the Red Cross included), but again without hard evidence to back this up it is difficult to tell."
The original post is here: http://godless.biz/2009/02/15/wellspring-of-falla...
#6 by azenis on October 20, 2009 - 6:17 am
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Which has what, exactly, to do with the image?
If a charity is religious by nature or origin, I won't give to it. Period. Love the reaction when Salvos etc ring up after my money and I say "Sorry I don't support religious organisations". They do not know how to react
#7 by azenis on October 20, 2009 - 6:19 am
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And Matt I think you have missed the point of the diagram. It is simply saying that prayer alone will do nothing. But, we all know, in the real world, you don't get something from nothing, do we…. A single pair of hands working will achieve infinitely more than a million hands clasped in prayer.
#8 by Kevin on October 31, 2009 - 1:15 pm
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I just wanted to post to say that I completely disagree. Prayer is the starting point off of which any action I take comes from. It's the only way to make sure that what I'm doing is what God's will is. And that is the #1 priority. Not mine, but his. Prayer allows for the opportunity for action to be taken, but misguided action (those without prayer) can cause more harm than good.
#9 by azenis on October 31, 2009 - 2:14 pm
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So you have no will of your own, and if you do, you don't trust it. But in reality you do, of course you have your own will, you just credit it to an imaginary friend. I guess that relieves you from any responsibility for poor choices. "God works in mysterious ways", "Its all part of gods plan" and whatever other excuse for poor decision making you care to make….
#10 by Cometa on October 31, 2009 - 6:50 pm
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I would tend to agree with Kevin, but I think what you are calling prayer, I would call thinking. I would think before taking actions; if you don't think about it and research it, you can do some serious harm.
I see the image as meaning that prayer alone does nothing. Actions make the difference, not the prayer.
#11 by askegg on November 1, 2009 - 11:19 pm
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You can start by praying if you like, but it's the action that has an effect. Prayer alone has none. It does not work. God is either not listening to people's prayer, or he doesn't care, or he doesn't exist.
#12 by azenis on November 1, 2009 - 11:44 pm
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Is prayer not asking your god who is supposed to love all his "children" equally to do favours and give special treatment?