The following is a response to a nice lady I meet on Twitter who goes by the name twisty58. She seems like a genuine, kind, and loving person who has some concerns over my theistic beliefs (or lack thereof). You see, she has spent a good part of her life preaching the word of god to those around here and has not really come across full blown atheists like me.
Anyway, in keeping with my recent decision to try and keep these discussion as public as possible I have decided to post this email and my response. It is my hope that Tammy or witnesses to this conversation will take something away from it.
This individual email is a response to how I came to be an atheist. As usual – Tammy’s email is indented, with my replies below.
Wow, ok! So I would venture to guess that you know Scripture pretty well-right?
I have read the Bible, but I would not say I know it that well. I cannot, for instance, recite passages and verses by heart. I have to keep looking them up all the time. Nevertheless, I am familiar with the contents of each book and approximately were to find the interesting parts.
The thing is we mess this whole thing up when we try to explain it because it’s not about religion, it’s about a relationship. For the record… don’t take into account ANYTHING regarding the Catholic church. Catholicism has nothing to do with Jesus. People ARE very sensitive about their religious beliefs because it is foundational to who they are.
This seems like a cop out to me. A relationship with Jesus *is* Christianity – a follower of the Christ. Modern religions seem to side step this issue by arguing for a god (by complexity and design, or first cause, etc), then equating the good feelings you have when you think about the central religious figure of your religion to that entity. It is not that simple or straight forward.
Catholicism has just as much right to claim to be the one true religion of Christ as any other denomination. In fact, they seem to be the first version of Christianity to which all other owe their very existence – largely due to the decisions of Emperor Constantine. However, I suspect this is a distraction to the real issues at hand, and I do not wish to pit one version of a religion against another when the basic tenants have not been proved.
People ARE very sensitive about their religious beliefs, because they do largely define themselves by them. There is a large degree of in group / out group mentality in play here – those who are not part of the “in” group are rejected, feared, or despised. We are so unaccustomed to having our religious views questioned that whenever someone asks the most innocent question can be labelled a bigot, racists, anti-theist, inconsiderate, rude, aggressive, etc. Why is this the case? Surely we should be able to openly discuss the most important question humanity has faced in its entire history?
I think Christianity is different because it’s not about who you are but Whose you are. (nevertheless you will meet many christians who really feel threatened when approached about their faith. I think it’s because they aren’t) I was raised with a christian mother. There was never a time in my life I didn’t know who Jesus was. (indoctrination? Maybe… but ultimately I made the decision for myself) One’s beliefs don’t get us into heaven… Scripture says Jesus is the only way. So it’s not so much about what we do but Who we belong to.
How many other religions were you exposed to? How many others do you truly understand? I am fortunate in that our religious education exposed us to many other belief systems, although it did focus mainly on Christianity and the Bible. It always intrigued me why people believe the things they do. When you understand that, it’s enlightening to use the same logic and reasoning on yourself.
For example, why does the creator of the universe require us to follow his physical representation of him as Jesus in order to gain eternal life? Why set up the rules this way? From the outside it appears it is just a ploy for the religion to gain more followers.
Nothing we can do of ourselves can get us there. Growing up in a christian family doesn’t make you a christian. You have to make the decision yourself to accept or reject Jesus. Over the generations we ( as christians) have become very complacent about our faith and we get comfortable attending the same denomination and going through the same old routines rather than standing up and living as we are called to do.
Many people somehow seem to believe some distant relative happened to find the correct religion, and their descendants have given it no real thought of their own and allowed a long dead family member to do all the thinking for them. This is a pretty poor way to choose a way of life, especially one that has infinite repercussions.
Often, we make a very lousy example to others. Scripture says that there will be a time of great deception and falling away and t hat the love of many will grow cold; we are seeing that now.
Scripture says a lot of things – most of it decent people everywhere completely ignore. Modern secular morality has dispensed with the morality prescribed in the bible.
We are being called to take our stand and to stand firm in Christ. This has been a rough time for me the past few months because I have left a church denomination that I have attended for over 20 years. Raised Baptist. married and begin attending the Nazarene denomination. Recently I have discovered that the denomination is choosing to do some things apart from Scripture. About a month ago, I resigned from the denomination because Scripture tells us to have nothing to do with those things.
Are they allowing women to preach? 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Are they stoning non-virgin brides? (Deut. 22:13-21)
Are all adulterers being stoned to death? (Deut. 22:22)
Are they allowing people to remarry after a divorce? (Mark 10:1-12)
Are the executing married couples who have sex during menstruation? (Lev. 18:19)
Are they insisting widowers have a baby with their husbands brother? (Mark 12:18-27)
Almost anything can be supported by scripture, who is to say what is right and wrong using this book alone?
I did not leave God. I left a man-made organization. I am a stronger believer in Jesus than ever before. My point is, I am not blindly following anything. This is as important to me as it is to you and it’s important to me that you understand that. You made a comment in one of your videos about having to answer the same questions over and over again and it’s hard to keep doing that. (I don’t blame you one bit) I don’t want to put you in that position cause I KNOW it has to drive you nuts. Clearly, you have have heard all the answers and have yet to make your final decision on this. I don’t want to be the same old run-of-the-mill answer machine. I want you to hear me. This is THE most important decision in your life and in the lives of your sweet daughters. I’m gonna answer some of your questions and then I want to tell you something… so let’s go…
There are many religions espousing to hold the ultimate truth and promise eternal life in paradise. Before we get to how I should follow Jesus, let’s determine he is actually the way to Heaven or not.
In your previous letter you said that you assumed I’d lived a good Christian life for my 42 years…in fact, I haven’t. I accepted Jesus as my Savior when I was 8 years old. I did it because I didn’t want to go to hell. I figured I had a choice… hell or Jesus.
That’s not much of a choice, now is it? Perhaps this parody video will help:
I decided on Jesus and in His mercy He accepted that tiny, ridiculous bit of faith. I grew up in church and always tried to do “the right thing”. You would have called me a goody-two-shoes.
But it was important to me that I lived as God wanted me to. The thing is, when you believe Jesus is Who He says He is…and you accept Him as your Savior something happens. The God of the Universe, the God of forever and always comes and lives inside you. Does that make me God? No. Is God in all? No. But.. I can look back over my life and see where God has been present the whole way. He has protected me from everything!
I am not doubting you have tried to live a good life, but I doubt very much that these morals have come from the Bible in general, or Jesus in particular. Jesus spat at people, upturned tables in churches, worked on Sundays, and generally broke all the rules of society at the time. I know we all look back at these things and think how wonderful he was, but try to image the reaction if you were to uptip a table during a church service and rant about how they should not be collecting money in the name of god. Where ever you get your morals, it is not from this man.
By myself, I’m not very loving. I’m actually pretty critical. I have doubts and fears and worries…. but not regarding Christ. Why? Because I KNOW Him! He answers prayers, He teaches me, He GIVES me those good fruits of patience and love and joy and peace. I do NOT do that by myself. Basically, I’m scum.
This is one of the things that bothers me about religion – you are born full of sin, imperfect, and unwell then are demanded to get better. I can understand the need to externalise the worry and horror of this world – it is a common tactic that religion has unwittingly hi-jacked for its own purpose. I think there is much more power in recognising we are responsible for the state of the world, and it’s up to us to fix it – not hope for a better one when we die.
(I know you find that hard to believe. LOL) Ya know Andrew, there are billions of people in the world who do good things… but only christians can do Godly things because it is christ IN them that does the good…. and even THEN those people make the choice whether or not to obey Him.
You are on a slippery slope here – once you start believing only your religion does god’s work, then it is not much of a step to condemning the works of others, even if they are good. This is the way a fundamentalist mind works and is one of the reasons religion can be dangerous.
There is nothing good you can do that I cannot. There is no action which I can only do if I believe a man came back to life 2,000 years ago. Religion adds nothing to to actions.
Our problem is we are sinners. None of us is perfect…we screw up, we do things that make US happy, we focus on ourselves and that never works. So no matter how hard I tried in my life, I have never measured up. I can’t.
This raises a few questions in my mind: 1) Why did god create us this way, imperfect? 2) Why did god punish us for being imperfect? 3) Why does god have to take human form to be killed and give us a chance at lifting the curse he himself imposed? 4) What kind of sacrifice is it when he didn’t really die at all?
That’s why Jesus came… so that He could be the “go-between” between me and God.
Am I missing something regarding the trinity? I thought this was 3 gods in 1, or is it 1 god in 3?
Do I have a problem accepting that I am a sinner? No. Because I know me. I know my thoughts and my manipulations and my motivations; they are all self-seeking. I know the truth about me. Jesus died so that He could make me worthy in the presence of God.
In all my life of trying to do good and failing…I even failed worse. We tend to think of some sins as being greater than others but the fact is… ALL sin separates us from God because God is holy and He can have nothing to do with evil and sin.
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7
God creates something he can have nothing to do with? Is he able to destroy evil? Wouldn’t an all loving god have already done this? The problem of evil has been tackled by the greatest apologists of Christianity – all have failed in my opinion.
I cheated on my husband. I had an affair (and if you had known me ALL my life you would have sworn that I would NEVER do such a thing). Things were tough at home and some sweet-talkin’ guy came along and I threw out everything I knew and had an affair. It almost completely destroyed my family.. my husband (who hurts to this day because of it), my children (one of whom has great difficulty forgiving me) my friends… the church…
There are no “greater” sins, however there are different consequences. If I hate someone, you might never know… but if I have an affair you may very well find out. The consequences are waaaay different. Was God living in me when that happened? Yes. But I didn’t do what He said and I paid the consequences for it. See, a price HAS to be paid for sin one way or another. Sin leads to death.
Ahh – who said that sin leads to death? Did god create this rule, or is he bound by it? If he can change it, then isn’t this a better way to deal with sin? If he can’t, then where does the rule come from?
See, I believe that the Bible IS the Word of the Living God, and I believe His name is Jesus.
This is obvious, but the real question is “why”?
A Christian is someone who totally depends on God for their righteousness and for their eternal condition. History, even apart from the Bible ells us more about Jesus Christ than any other of our world leaders. There was something about that man. He just won’t “go away”. We HAVE to make some kind of decision about Him. One of the things Jesus said was that He would make it possible for those who believe in Him to be changed forever…His Spirit would live in us. That’s what makes Christianity different from other “religions”.
Where are the contemporary records of Jesus life, and most importantly the resurrection (without which there would be no Christianity)? Even the four gospels were written decades after the events and are contradictory accounts.
Is there any reliable physical evidence for the existence of Jesus? He never wrote anything, there enough cross pieces to build an ark, and the miracles left no evidence behind at all. Where IS all this evidence?
You are absolutely right about many claiming to be Christians yet know nothing about Scripture! I am hungry for it. I can’t get enough! But… being a Bible scholar is not what makes me a Christian. Knowing Scripture doesn’t save me. Believing in Jesus doesn’t save me either. (Scripture says that even the demons believe, and shudder) What saves me is knowing I’m a sinner; I screw up and that I believe that Jesus came to save me from my own sin so that I can be accepted by God. So many of us have such a hard time with admitting we sin.We tend to think we are pretty darn good people. Our goodness isn’t enough. It’s not ABOUT me, it’s about Jesus. So all these people who haven’t read the Bible don’t know about the underlying theme. God says he IS LOVE…..not He’s loving or He’s lovable. He. Is. Love. Wrap your mind around that! So what does that mean? Does that mean He is a namby-pamby puny god who is of no consequence? Not at all! He is One who hates evil and is not willing to let wickedness to go unpunished.
You honestly can’t see the contradiction is what you just said? God IS love, yet he hates and punishes. These are not acts of love.
You’re right about the OT; there is much judgement there and there is much more judgement to come in the very near future. You are even now beginning to see God’s judgement playing out.
Believers have been saying those sorts of things for centuries. So far they have all been wrong. The “predictions” about the end of times are so vague they could be seen anywhere and everywhere. Guess what we see – exactly that.
Why did God destroy every single living thing on earth with a flood? Because mankind was so corrupt that it was unredeemable. Why did God destroy all the first-born of Egypt? Because Pharoah and all of of Egypt were evil and unredeemable. If you read the whole story, God gave Pharoah many chances to obey. But he only flaunted in God’s face those opportunities. Why did God drown the Egyptians in the Red Sea? Insolent, disobedient people who refused to treat God as God.
Did any of these great remedies to humanities problems actually solve the issue? No. Your god is a failure. Anyway, god gets to judge people after they die and lives outside of time – why is he in such a rush to kill people all the time?
You are absolutely right! These are not the acts of an all-loving God, but consequences of continual wrong choices. Had any of those people in the OT changed their minds and obeyed, even at the last second, God would have honored that. What about Jonah and Nineveh? God sent Jonah to tell Nineveh He was going to destroy them (because they were evil and disobedient) but Nineveh repented and began to serve God. God did not destroy them. God demands righteousness and none of us are righteous. That’s why we need Jesus.
The bible is almost a never ending stream of “look at those silly people, don’t you be like them”. It’s childish and stupid.
You ask, “What kind of God would allow this kind of suffering?” The only God we have. But He not only judges and is a righteous, fair judge… He actually COMES to live within us, to place His Spirit in us so that we can be worthy.
A fair judge? Name a single judge who would sentence any criminal to an eternal punishment. An infinite punishment for a finite crime.
I want you to consider this for awhile. I have more things to say and I’ll get to it. The thing is… how can I be so SURE of this…. it’s not because of a religion; it’s because of a relationship. I KNOW Him. Please consider these things and I’ll write more in a day or so. Keep watching the news and the things that are happening in Israel. Amazing things are happening right now.
Israel is a basket case.
Love Ya!
twisty
It’s been fun 
