1.2 – Agnostic v Atheist

This week we discuss atheism verse agnosticism, a few news items, and racing around in cars.

References

Agnostic v Atheist [ 1:23:36 ] Play Now | Download

Les (TexAtheist)

Good conversation Andrew and company. Keep em coming. Good stuff.

http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

Thanks mate :) We intend to.

Orko

I think there is lots of confusion regarding the whole agnostic/atheist terms. Many people like to class themselves as agnostic, and don't realise it's probably more 'correct' to say agnostic atheist.

So, glad to see it come up in the podcast.

http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

Thanks. We covered a lot of ground here very quickly without going into enormous depth. Still, I think it came out well.
Laraesque

Agnostic atheist? Is that like being a member of the Brethren of the First Holy Church rather than Brethren of the Redeemed Holy Church? ;)

http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

Umm – no.

Agnostic is a position of knowledge. Atheism is a position of belief. While I may not know for sure if a god exists or not, I see no reason to belief one does – so I am both an agnostic and an atheist. Technically, I am also ignostic because no robust definition of "god" has ever been provided.

Laraesque

Good job! Is there a way to send e-mail for longer discussions?

http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

You can send emails to podcast@godless.biz. We all get them.

Laraesque

To one of the speakers: be careful about those claims to never have children. I swore I never would and had two. Biology and the survival of genes has an amazing power to sidetracking you into temporary insanity. I know of others to whom this has happened. Incidentally, I am ordained. At least one correspondence church has been ordaining ministers since the 60s.javascript: postComment(0);

http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

That was Oliver. Personally, I never really thought about having kids until it was too late. Good thing I found the right woman and married her beforehand, now we have two gorgeous daughters.

laraesque

I was very happy to find your podcast. Nice delivery. It seems, though, that you spent a bit of time trying to establish the definitions of atheism without agreeing on the definitions of 'believe' and 'know.' I contend that they are synonymous in many people's minds (and in your discussion) or that knowing is simply the strongest degree of believing (for some). Therein lies at least some of the confusion. I also noted that you tried to strike the use of the word 'believe' in relation to the term atheism. To me, atheism means simply the absence of any theistic beliefs. Thus people who _believe_ there are no gods or _know_ there are no gods could equally be called atheists, with the knowers to have a stronger emotional attachment to their intellectual stance.

Or maybe that's the believers. . .
http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

That's a valid point. Perhaps we will try and briefly clarify the definitions in the next podcast?
http://twitter.com/Cynskeptical @Cynskeptical

I still stand by my claim to not have children, ever.
Thanks guys for the comments too.

Next podcast should be a good one. Especially after our little trip to the ACL's Make it Count forum.

We even have our first question to answer for "Am I right or Wrong" segment.

Plus there are load of news articles that have come out, actually they come out daily, that we can discuss.

You could say that the amount of religious as well as other morally and ethically corrupt items to discuss is eternal. So long as there is at least one believer in the world, we will have a show.
http://godlesspaladin.wordpress.com/ Godless Paladin

Hey from the States! Love the show! I especially liked the Mcdermott clip. As to the question you brought up "would a prime time show be allowed to get away with something like that", depends. Most main stream networks here are pretty religious. The network that recently aired the superbowl for American football event went to far as to air anti-choice (for abortion) ad by a conservative group, but at the same time rejected a liberal church ad that dared to suggest that god loves everyone.

The worst network for that is FOX. They are vehemently anti-atheist/agnostic. Thunderf00t did a good video on just one case where this clown they have, Glenn Beck, aired a brutal murder on prime time TV and blamed it on the godless, saying that because they were trying to take the Christian God off the currency, this murder took place… ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMwZ76QB7uk ) FOX is on one end of the spectrum, but the other networks aren't too far away from that.

As for Bill Maher, he's on the Home Box Office, which is a channel people have to pay special for, it does not come on basic cable, so his views are not open to the public like the religious groups that have their own channels included in basic cable. The two people who do anything close to Maher or Mcdermott are Jon Stewart or Stephen Colbert. (Their shows are "The Daily Show" and "The Colbert Report" which are satire new shows, pretty popular with the 15-35 demographic, but they run later at night)

As for coming out Atheist vs coming out gay in the states, yeah, the former is harder. Homosexuality is a lot more acceptable (though still demonized by a large group of people) than being Atheist. A really interesting study was came out in 2006 ( http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=1786422… ) It found that, in the states, Atheists were the least trusted group of people. A gay Muslim has more of a chance being elected president than an Atheist. (There are also laws on the books in several states banning Atheists from holding public office, but nobody's tested them in court)

Anywho, hope that helps. Keep up the great work! I love hearing how things are for you all in Australia. It's pretty hellish here in the very heart of the American bible belt. :-(
–GP

http://intensedebate.com/people/GodlessNige GodlessNige

Thanks for the post GP
Wow. America. Land of the free huh.

The Colbert Report has just started airing on ABC2 (Australia) at 7pm, free to air, government run, prime time :)
Anonymous Atheist

In addition to Stephen Colbert (sarcastically irrational) and Jon Stewart on Comedy Central, the other voices of reason on American TV are on the news cable channel MSNBC: Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz, and others.

And to clarify, the "worst network" is Fox News, the insane 24-hour pseudo-news cable channel. Not Fox, which (like NBC, CBS, and ABC) is a separate franchise of locally-run broadcast stations that are generally just fine, carrying a mix of local news shows, national news shows, and national entertainment TV shows.

http://www.godless.biz/ askegg

I am afraid to admit the ultimate boss of Fox is an (ex) Australian. The bastard!

Anonymous Atheist

The far-too-many state laws banning atheists from holding public office have always been invalid (and officially recognized as such since 1961) due to their violation of the national constitution, but the stupid states 'just haven't bothered' to remove them from the books (would it be okay if states still had laws discriminating against black people in their constitutions??), and the ignorant population believes they still are (and/or should be) valid. They were recently challenged in North Carolina when atheist Cecil Bothwell was elected to the Ashville city council; and "In 1961 Torcaso v. Watkins, a case similar to the current events in Asheville, went to the U.S. Supreme Court. The court exercised separation of church and state by ruling in favor of a Maryland atheist seeking public appointment." http://lubbockonline.com/stories/122009/loc_53758… http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/StateConstituti… http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Laws_and_oth…

FactoryGirl

I forgot to post on this podcast, so I'm going to do it now….
was thinking about your discussion of alternatives to saying I don't believe or I know there isn't a God…
here a couple of different ways you could phase it:

In my opinion there is no God,
or
I have come to the conclusion there is no God.
or
when it comes to the existence of god, i remain to be convinced.

http://www.godless.biz/ askegg

That would make you an agnostic atheist, just like me.

http://thingsfindothinks.com AndrewFinden

So you're an a-theist, not an athe-ist (as some claim the term originally meant)?

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44 – An Atheist Temple

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Standard Podcast [ 1:44:50 ] Play Now | Download

1.2 – Agnostic v Atheist

References

44 – An Atheist Temple

Further Reading

Dog Heads

Matt’s Human Morality

Aunt Matilda’s Cake

Atheism 2.0

The Bizarre Bible

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