Godless Business

Say one for me …

Say One for Me
A new web site from the Church of England has opened it’s doors, but I expect they are about to get more than the good lord intended.

The Say One for Me web site allows you to write down your deepest wishes and have the Bishops of Birmingham, Huntingdon, Leicester, Manchester, Worcester and the Archbishop of  York will pray on your behalf.

Now I am not one to rock the boat, but what would happen if, say, a bunch of atheists, free thinkers, humanists, rationalists, brights, heathens, and heretics started submitted their deeply held wishes directly to these Bishops?  What would happen then?

I think you know what to do.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/GodlessNige GodlessNige
    • Dermot

      Hey Nige, you use a Mac! It's the computer they'll use in heaven :)

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

        Dermot, you will be glad to hear I now own nothing but Macs.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/GodlessNige GodlessNige

        You could almost say Apple is my religion, except they do not have tax free status…

        :)

  • Dermot

    "Please pray for all of the scientifically ignorant people who don't believe in God. Help them see the error of their ways and come to understand You in all your natural glory. Amen."

    :)

    • http://www.facebook.com/anwyll David Gibson

      "Please pray for all of the scientifically ignorant people who don't believe in God. Help them see the error of their ways and come to understand You in all your natural glory. Amen."

      So you have scientific evidence for God?

      Please share :)

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

        Of course Dermot doesn't predictable, repeatable, demonstrable, empirical, scientific evidence. Science deals with things that are real. God, being unreal, is not in the same sphere.

        • Dermot

          Hahaha :) the fishing is good. Prove that He doesn't exist? You can't. All that you can say is that you believe he doesn't. Just because something hasn't been defined in scientific literature doesn't mean it's not real – that's a very narrow view of the world. Surely you need to keep an open mind??

          And btw fellas, it's all in the reading of your sentence – scientifically ignorant can mean that you are ignorant of science or that you are ignorant because of your view of science. :)

          Sometimes when debating with atheists I feel like I'm dealing with cave men (sorry – this isn't meant for anyone on this site, at least you guys engage) as they have a world view that they're not happy to have challenged – maybe they can't see beyond their current worldview? To see God you have to first of all be open to the idea that He's there. If not you can't rationally engage with both sides of the debate. I have considered the option that God may not exist as well as the fact that He does exist. For me the evidence stacks up on the side of His existence.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

            You know I cannot prove god does not exist, but I do not need to in order to disbelieve your claims.

            You cannot prove a negative. You cannot dismiss the idea of a Dragon in my garage (given he has certain properties), or a teapot in orbit around Jupiter, or that I have a diamond the size of a fridge in my backyard. If you feel you *can* disprove these things – please give it your best shot.

            "Surely you need to keep an open mind??"

            Yes, but not so open my brain falls out.

            "Sometimes when debating with atheists I feel like I'm dealing with cave men"

            Ad hominems will not fly here.

            "…as they have a world view that they're not happy to have challenged"

            Really? Then why am I responding with (hopefully) valid points?

            "To see God you have to first of all be open to the idea that He's there"

            Who said I wasn't? I am just looking for the evidence to back up the claim. Where is it?

            "… the fact that He does exist."

            A fact is something that can be demonstrated. We'll wait.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/GodlessNige GodlessNige

            "To see God you have to first of all be open to the idea that He's there."

            In much the same way as seances, cold reading, homeopathy and ghosts work.

    • http://www.facebook.com/NRParsons Nathan Parsons

      For a disbelief in God to be scientific ignorance, would the idea of God not first have to be scientifically valid? God is not falsifiable and therefore not science.

      But please, if at all possible, provide a scientific means by which God's existence can be indicated.

  • Cometa

    "Please pray for all of the scientifically ignorant people who believe in God. Help them see the error of their ways and come to understand evolution in all of its natural glory. Amen."

    I think they'll like that one.

  • Dermot

    This is good :)

    If I say that God is Spirit and that to relate to Him I need to use a faculty other than which I use to relate to the physical world how would you respond? If I say that I have experienced God what would you say? If I said that I have heard God speak to me what would you say? If I can point you to hundreds of other people who have had similar experiences what would you say?

    Each of your examples supposedly occupy physical space so disproving them is simply a matter of examining the space that they occupy to see if they're there. God on the other hand is spirit so examining the physical space that he occupies is impossible but we can view the effect he has on the physical world. Specifically in the lives of people.

    If you see me commit a murder and then testify to the police about what you saw is that accepted as fact by a court of law? If a dozen people testify to the act does that carry greater weight? What if 100's of people say it was true because they saw it first hand?100's of people testified to seeing Jesus alive after his crucifixion – would their testimony be accepted in a court of law?

    I pastor a church of more than 500 people who profess to having had an experience with God – a personal experience with God not a secondhand experience. Are they all deranged and delusional? Did they all suffer mass hypnosis? Have I? There is plenty of factual evidence if you want to accept it.

    Thankyou for admitting that you can't prove that God does not exist :)

    • http://www.facebook.com/anwyll David Gibson

      "If I say that God is Spirit and that to relate to Him I need to use a faculty other than which I use to relate to the physical world how would you respond?"
      I would request proof that you engage a different part of your brain in order to interact with this "spirit" whatever that may mean. Unfortunately, when this is done people are regularly shown to use the part of their brain when they interact with another human being. Furthermore, when thinking about God and what he values or dislikes they consistently, significantly and repeatedly engage the same part of their brain that they use to think about their own values and beliefs. Conversely, when thinking about another person they know and what they believe, value and think they actually use a different part of their brain.

      "If I say that I have experienced God what would you say?"
      In what manner have you experienced God? I've experience deja vu but it doesn't mean I have actually already experienced the exact moment I have just lived through.

      "If I said that I have heard God speak to me what would you say? If I can point you to hundreds of other people who have had similar experiences what would you say?"
      I could point to a variety of mental institutions who have people who claim the same thing. How can you prove the voice you're hearing is from an external source. I'm not saying you're mentally ill, in fact it is a subject of great debate with psychologists and neuroscientists around the extent to which internal dialogue is normal and healthy. Ever had a thought suddenly pop in to your head that was not entirely welcome? Is this from some supernatural source or simply the bubbling of thought processes from deep within your subconcious?

      "Each of your examples supposedly occupy physical space so disproving them is simply a matter of examining the space that they occupy to see if they're there."
      Not if andrew does your trick say they are spiritual. Or what of energy? What is the physical space occupied by a photon? Maybe the dragon deliberately hides its physical form because faith in its existence is integral to its message? Maybe the diamond is metaphorical about the true beauty and integrity that can reside in each of us and the very act of digging for it is spiritually cleansing? Maybe the teapot around jupiter is unlike any teapot we know of today and can shift between the dark energy and normal matter and energy… we know so little about dark energy yet it comprises a vast majority of the universe.

      cont…

    • http://www.facebook.com/anwyll David Gibson

      …

      "God on the other hand is spirit so examining the physical space that he occupies is impossible but we can view the effect he has on the physical world. Specifically in the lives of people."
      Surely you must admit science has unveiled and described the existence of seemingly spaceless features of our universe. Not everything in the universe is matter and has space (even if it exists within space). Either your is in the universe in some manner and interacts and thus engages with matter and energy in a cause and effect manner or he is outside the universe at best. Don't forget dark energy or even dark matter which we only know to exist because of gravitational effects of light while observing distant galaxies.

      "If you see me commit a murder and then testify to the police about what you saw is that accepted as fact by a court of law?"
      Eye witness testimony, while being an integral part of our legal system, is notoriously unreliable and has been proven so time and time again. This is why scientifically rigorous evidence is always preferred in order to corroborate eye wtiness testimony, finger prints, DNA, material left behind, security cameras, etc.

      "If a dozen people testify to the act does that carry greater weight?"
      Yes, but they are all subject to the same systematic biases and flaws in human perception and memory.

      "What if 100's of people say it was true because they saw it first hand?"
      See above.

      "100's of people testified to seeing Jesus alive after his crucifixion – would their testimony be accepted in a court of law?"
      If the people were right here, right now. It would make an interesting case regarding the non-murder of Jesus but I digress. Your eye witness testimony is horribly flawed and relies on books written by people, accepted by historians not to be eye witnesses. These books are dated to be no earlier than 70 years after the event, several of the books contradict each other while explicitly copying each other. Not to mention the complete lack of contemporary historical references.

      Nevermind that what you have described could be reason enough for the people who were wtinesses. Surely, if someone ran up to you today, described something as fantastical as a definitely dead person rising back to life you would be skeptical. If not I have some lovely real estate for you…

      And even if I accepted your line of reasoning, surely you see the problem? You could replace the whole focus from Christianity and make it for Islam and Muhammad. Do you deny he rode to heaven on a horse? People saw it. It is recorded in their holy scripture too. What of the Hindu gods? Etc?

      cont…

    • http://www.facebook.com/anwyll David Gibson

      …

      "I pastor a church of more than 500 people who profess to having had an experience with God – a personal experience with God not a secondhand experience. Are they all deranged and delusional? Did they all suffer mass hypnosis? Have I?"
      This is obviously difficult to answer. These people could be misattributing internal dialogue to a God. Perhaps it is just the warm and fuzzy feeling of a large number of people getting together, singing, praying and feeling connected. I too have these feelings when I ponder the immensity of the universe, the variety of life on Earth, the amazing process of evolution and its products, the potential for human technology and the secrets we have and can unlock about the universe and each other, etc. Mass hypnosis is plausible, hypnotism is a real influence that people can have over others and some have done so without realising. I would recommend reading Dan Dennett's book "Breaking the Spell" he specifically talks about this. I wouldn't go so far as to say you and your congregation is delusional.

      "There is plenty of factual evidence if you want to accept it."
      No it is subjective evidence that is unverifiable in the objective reality we share. Now while this definition is limiting (for example my emotions are not objectively verifiable by other people, they can't feel what I'm feeling but I'm ok with that) it is unfortunately for you the only place that I know of where we can be certain of reality (to a limited extent) and move forward with the evidence. Bias, confounding and error are serious problems that all scientists learn about how to account for, prevent and avoid while conducting research with new methods and techniques developed all the time.

      "Thankyou for admitting that you can't prove that God does not exist :) "
      Don't say it like it means something. Especially while offering evidence for God you explicitly attempt to define him beyond evidence. It is hypocritical and disingenuous.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

      “If I say that God is Spirit and that to relate to Him I need to use a faculty other than which I use to relate to the physical world how would you respond?”

      I would ask you to demonstrate there is such more to reality than the physical, and how do you know this?

      “If I say that I have experienced God what would you say?”

      You are mistaken. You may have experienced emotional states, but how are you drawing the conclusion it derives from a god? Also, you do not simply believe in *a*, you believe in one particular god – the god of Abraham. Please tell me how you concluded the thousands of other potential god were false, but yours is the one true god.

      “If I said that I have heard God speak to me what would you say?”

      You actually hear voices in your head? How could this be evidence to me? I cannot hear the voices in your head, so I cannot confirm of deny the experience. Also, if god is all loving and wants to save my eternal soul(which he created) then he would know this might count as evidence of his existence to me. Why do I not hear him speak?

      “If I can point you to hundreds of other people who have had similar experiences what would you say?”

      It does not matter is everyone else in the world clearly hears the voice of god in their head – if I do not, then I would be lying if I said I experienced it. Lacking this evidence, how could I say if it was true or not?

      “Each of your examples supposedly occupy physical space so disproving them is simply a matter of examining the space that they occupy to see if they're there.”

      No. I have been scanning the skies with my telescope yet no teapot can yet be found. I still believe it’s there.

      I have been digging in my backyard for 5 years now and still not unearthed the diamond, but I believe it is there (I base my life around it).

      The dragon in my garage is invisible, so I cannot see him. I tried putting talcum powder all over the floor to show visitors his foot prints, but he must be flying because none have appeared yet. Thermal imaging scans reveal nothing, but he is a magical, invisible dragon, so I suppose he can make himself immune to such technology. It seems the more I look, the more it seems like he’s not there at all. Still, I believe he is and take instructions on how to live my life my from him.

      “God on the other hand is spirit so examining the physical space that he occupies is impossible but we can view the effect he has on the physical world. Specifically in the lives of people.”

      Excellent. Then religious people should be more successful, happier, peaceful, charitable, and less violent. Pity the statistics do not back you up here.

      “If you see me commit a murder and then testify to the police about what you saw is that accepted as fact by a court of law?”

      Yes, but it counts as very poor evidence. If the accused has physical evidence we was in other state at the time of the murder, and the blood of the victim was found on another person, my testimony is under serious threat.

      “If a dozen people testify to the act does that carry greater weight?”

      In the absence of any other evidence, possibly. Just because a group of people believe something occurred does not make it so.

      “What if 100's of people say it was true because they saw it first hand?”

      Makes no difference.

      “100's of people testified to seeing Jesus alive after his crucifixion – would their testimony be accepted in a court of law?”

      No they didn’t. We have less than a handful of people who claim Jesus came back from the dead and their accounts are contradictory. How many people went to see Jesus in the tomb? What sex were they? What time was it? How many angels meet them? Where were the angels? etc. Furthermore, these stories were written at least 4 decades after the fact – do you think the story remained perfectly intact in the people mind for that time? Can you relay a personal event to me that happened to you 40 years ago with complete accuracy?

      “I pastor a church of more than 500 people who profess to having had an experience with God…”

      Profess.

      “ – a personal experience with God not a secondhand experience. Are they all deranged and delusional?”

      Not deranged – mistaken.

      “Did they all suffer mass hypnosis?”

      No – they probably have a warm fuzzy feeling and slap the label “god” on it. Everything else is the result of being a miserable sinner.

      “There is plenty of factual evidence if you want to accept it.”

      Facts do not care if I want to accept them or not. Either you can lead me directly to solid evidence and draw almost inescapable conclusions, or you cannot. We are waiting.

      “Thankyou for admitting that you can't prove that God does not exist :)”

      I never said I could, but then again I cannot disprove any non-falsify-able notion. :)

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

      “If I say that God is Spirit and that to relate to Him I need to use a faculty other than which I use to relate to the physical world how would you respond?”

      I would ask you to demonstrate there is such more to reality than the physical, and how do you know this?

      “If I say that I have experienced God what would you say?”

      You are mistaken. You may have experienced emotional states, but how are you drawing the conclusion it derives from a god? Also, you do not simply believe in *a*, you believe in one particular god – the god of Abraham. Please tell me how you concluded the thousands of other potential god were false, but yours is the one true god.

      “If I said that I have heard God speak to me what would you say?”

      You actually hear voices in your head? How could this be evidence to me? I cannot hear the voices in your head, so I cannot confirm of deny the experience. Also, if god is all loving and wants to save my eternal soul(which he created) then he would know this might count as evidence of his existence to me. Why do I not hear him speak?

      “If I can point you to hundreds of other people who have had similar experiences what would you say?”

      It does not matter is everyone else in the world clearly hears the voice of god in their head – if I do not, then I would be lying if I said I experienced it. Lacking this evidence, how could I say if it was true or not?

      “Each of your examples supposedly occupy physical space so disproving them is simply a matter of examining the space that they occupy to see if they're there.”

      No. I have been scanning the skies with my telescope yet no teapot can yet be found. I still believe it’s there.

      I have been digging in my backyard for 5 years now and still not unearthed the diamond, but I believe it is there (I base my life around it).

      The dragon in my garage is invisible, so I cannot see him. I tried putting talcum powder all over the floor to show visitors his foot prints, but he must be flying because none have appeared yet. Thermal imaging scans reveal nothing, but he is a magical, invisible dragon, so I suppose he can make himself immune to such technology. It seems the more I look, the more it seems like he’s not there at all. Still, I believe he is and take instructions on how to live my life my from him.

      “God on the other hand is spirit so examining the physical space that he occupies is impossible but we can view the effect he has on the physical world. Specifically in the lives of people.”

      Excellent. Then religious people should be more successful, happier, peaceful, charitable, and less violent. Pity the statistics do not back you up here.

      “If you see me commit a murder and then testify to the police about what you saw is that accepted as fact by a court of law?”

      Yes, but it counts as very poor evidence. If the accused has physical evidence we was in other state at the time of the murder, and the blood of the victim was found on another person, my testimony is under serious threat.

      “If a dozen people testify to the act does that carry greater weight?”

      In the absence of any other evidence, possibly. Just because a group of people believe something occurred does not make it so.

      “What if 100's of people say it was true because they saw it first hand?”

      Makes no difference.

      “100's of people testified to seeing Jesus alive after his crucifixion – would their testimony be accepted in a court of law?”

      No they didn’t. We have less than a handful of people who claim Jesus came back from the dead and their accounts are contradictory. How many people went to see Jesus in the tomb? What sex were they? What time was it? How many angels meet them? Where were the angels? etc. Furthermore, these stories were written at least 4 decades after the fact – do you think the story remained perfectly intact in the people mind for that time? Can you relay a personal event to me that happened to you 40 years ago with complete accuracy?

      “I pastor a church of more than 500 people who profess to having had an experience with God…”

      Profess.

      “ – a personal experience with God not a secondhand experience. Are they all deranged and delusional?”

      Not deranged – mistaken.

      “Did they all suffer mass hypnosis?”

      No – they probably have a warm fuzzy feeling and slap the label “god” on it. Everything else is the result of being a miserable sinner.

      “There is plenty of factual evidence if you want to accept it.”

      Facts do not care if I want to accept them or not. Either you can lead me directly to solid evidence and draw almost inescapable conclusions, or you cannot. We are waiting.

      “Thankyou for admitting that you can't prove that God does not exist :)”

      I never said I could, but then again I cannot disprove any non-falsify-able notion. :)

  • http://twitter.com/Cynskeptical @Cynskeptical

    Well I have a challenge for you. Go for one month or at least one week without the bible, without church, without saying thanks in the form of prayer or any kind of acknowledgement to your god. Take one week off and away from any kind of religious based activities or events that involve specifically yourself as a participator and not just and outside viewer.
    Do morally and ethically based acts of kindness & decisions without thinking about any kind of scriptures that might possibly match any of these acts.

    If at the end of the two weeks you come back and you say hey you know what I can't deal with life and all these day to day things I do unless I have God and the bible to fall back onto, especially in stick situations or where decisions are tough and I need to have some kind of written guidance that I get from the bible, then cool, I see no reason to try and convince you of any logical or scientific/realistic reason to not believe in god.
    If however you manage to go the whole week and still perform just as well as you would have had you gone about your life with god in mind and bible in hand, then perhaps you might consider never having to pick up the book or hold onto the thought of god in your mind, for if you can go a week without all that, surely you can go the rest of your life without it as well. And still be a good man.

    Just a thought, which I doubt will be listened but I wouldn't mind knowing the outcome should you choose to take up the challenge.

    • http://twitter.com/damejared @damejared

      Although the stress that he might incur during that time might cause things to happen in which a believer might assign random events the pattern of a "super all knowing god" making changes in their life.

      Too many what if's …. most religious people of education are starting to realize that the method of the past aren't working anymore and that people view their religion less and less important in their daily life.

      We have seen this from past historical religions and the current ones are just going through their cycles.

Subscribe to the Podcast

44 – An Atheist Temple

BBC News – Row over Indonesia atheist Facebook post Priority is to protect marriage | Herald Sun No Fetus Can Feed Us | Unreasonable Faith Alain de Botton: Atheism 2.0 | Video on TED.com

Standard Podcast [ 1:44:50 ] Play Now | Download

Further Reading

ACL lie about census

The Australian Christian Lobby are lying again. This time they are mischaracterising the Atheist Foundation of Australia’s “No Religion” campaign by stating (emphasis mine): “While the census data is rightly used to assist the government to plan for services and infrastructure, other groups, including some atheists, are seeking to push their  agendas by encouraging people [...]

Dog Heads

The excellent British broadcaster BBC 4 recently aired a fascinating program called “The Medieval Mind” which explores the philosophy, theology, and predominate thinking of the dark ages.  The first episode deals with knowledge and revealed numerous intriguing insights into how the medieval mind determined epistemological truths. Monks, priests, and other godly people were in possession [...]

Atheists n Agnostics speak out in Arabic

I flagged this video a few days ago, but only watched it this evening. It’s is not often we see ex-muslims speaking out against the “religion of peace”. What these people have done is extraordinary and brave given the fundamentalists attraction to extreme violence.

The perfect God

I want a god whose ultimate goals which do not necessitate the creation of mysterious suffering and death. I want a god who doesn’t violate causation by causing things to begin to exist from nothing in the absence of time. I want a god who does not give us “free will” then punishes us for [...]

Atheism 2.0

“Atheism 2.0” is a 20 minute TED presentation by Alain de Botton in which he proposes a new approach to evangelising atheism. Alain suggests (apparently without evidence) that we have “secularised badly” and we should sift through the rituals, traditions, and behaviours of religion to identify and adopt their efficient mechanisms. “I have come here [...]

The Bizarre Bible

Atheists are often told by believers to read the Bible and it will all become clear.  Trouble is, many of us have tried that and it doesn’t seem to have helped.  Take these verses for example: This does not sound like a great night out to me. “But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master [...]