Blog, Featured - Written by on Friday, July 2, 2010 22:43 - 38 Comments

What is Atheism?

Like all other discourse in society, religious conversations hinge on the definitions of specific words.  To facilitate meaningful discussion it is important that everyone involved agrees on the specific interpretations of the words and phrases used so that the all parties have a clear understanding of the message being conveyed.  Many hours have been wasted arguing positions without clearly understanding the underlying definitions, therefore misinterpreting the messages conveyed.

For example, the word “atheist” has specific meaning to the individuals using it.  Although, it may not be immediately apparent different definitions might be in play until well into the debate.  Some usages of the word immediately give away meanings in theological discussions.  For example:

  • Atheism has no solid philosophical basis.
  • Atheism has no basis for morality.
  • Atheism has no explanation for the origins of the universe.
  • The horrors of Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin were due to atheism.
  • Atheism is a religion.

These examples (and many more) display a profound ignorance not only the word “atheism” but what it is or is not, as the case may be.

The term “atheism” originates from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning “without gods”.  Originally it was applied negatively to those who rejected the gods worshiped by the community at large.  As such, Christians were originally called “atheists” since they did not believe in the many Greek gods on offer.  Instead they asserted their three-in-one deity as the … ummmm … one true god.

The New Testament refers to “atheists”, but only once.  Papyrus 46 (one of the earliest New Testament manuscripts in existence) mentions atheists in Epistle to the Ephesians (2:12).  It is usually translated into English as “[those who are] without God”.  It seems there has always been educated people who reject the bizarre claims of the godly.  So much for “the new atheists”.

“Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called ‘uncircumcised’ by those who call themselves ‘the circumcision’ (that done in the body by the hands of men) — remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.” – Ephesians 2:11

Early usages of the word suggest it’s meaning to be “godless”, “ungodly”, or “impious”.  With this definition and the historical usage in mind it is easy to understand the connotations atheism carries today among those unfamiliar with what atheism truly is, or more accurately, is not.

By the 5th Century atheism began to mean “severing relations with god” or “denying the gods”.  Many still operate under this definition today under the misapprehension that any usage of the word “god” automatically refers to the an extant entity – the god they happen to believe in.  Of course, this is a ludicrous assertion as one must also accept the existence of (operating under the exactly same logic) leprechauns, unicorns, gremlins, ghouls, kraken, and Cthulhu.  Why would these words exist unless otherwise?  It is interesting to note that records of debates between (say) Christians and Hellenists would often use the word “atheist” when referring to the opposing side.  These are clearly not atheists as we understand them today.

The term English word “atheist” comes from the French “athéisme”, which appeared around 1571.  Related words emerged shortly afterwards; deist in 1621, theist in 1662, theism in 1678, and deism in 1682 – although the definitions of these words not fixed in those early days.

Karen Armstrong, a former Catholic Nun and author of many comparative religious works, writes:

“During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the word ‘atheist’ was still reserved exclusively for polemic … The term ‘atheist’ was an insult. Nobody would have dreamed of calling himself an atheist.”

Atheism was first used to specifically denoting disbelief in the monotheistic Abrahamic god in the late 18th-century.  In the 20th century, globalisation contributed to the expansion of the term to refer to disbelief in all deities. In the Western atheism is still simply “disbelief in God” (a term I am personally uncomfortable with for reasons I will explore shortly).

Even today there is disagreement on how exactly to define atheism.  The areas of debate seem to centre around which supernatural entities it applies to.  Is atheism an assertion in it own right? Does it require a conscious and explicit rejection?  Categories have been proposed to deal with these difficulties, but I believe them to be mostly confusing and largely unnecessary.

All people who have never heard of a god are implicitly atheist.  This includes babies, societies without supernatural beliefs, or individuals incapable of forming a coherent thought.  In opposition to implicit atheism and theistic innatism (the idea that all people believe in God from birth); is explicit atheism.  Those who have considered the god hypothesis and rejected it, for whatever reason.  Many who subscribe to theistic innatism consider atheists are simply in denial.  How many times have you heard the phrase “everyone believes in god, even if they don’t know it”?

“The man who is unacquainted with theism is an atheist because he does not believe in a god. This category would also include the child with the conceptual capacity to grasp the issues involved, but who is still unaware of those issues. The fact that this child does not believe in god qualifies him as an atheist.” – George H. Smith

Philosophers such as Antony Flew have propose further categories of atheism – positive and negative atheism for example, though not in the sense that positive is good and negative is bad.  Positive atheism is the explicit affirmation that gods do not exist, while negative atheism includes all other non-theistic positions.  I prefer the modifiers strong and weak, leaving positive atheism for honest, morally upright, progressive, enthusiastic disbelievers in gods.

Strong atheists either assert there is no god, or (less forcefully) claim the statement “there is at least one god” is false.  While this is certainly a stronger claim, I believe it is a weaker position.  Since this a claim to knowledge it attracts the burden of proof, and proving the non-existence of anything has always been tricky.

Practical atheists live as if gods do not exist, or are not important considerations - apatheists.  Practical atheism can take many forms, but usually the existence of gods is not explicitly denied. Many people claiming to believe in a god (ticking the Christian box on a census form for example) do not give any practical consideration to their proclaimed faith in everyday life, thus might be considered practical atheists.  On the other hand, theoretical atheists posit arguments against the existence of gods, usually in response to theistic claims.

You might notice that none of these definitions address knowledge, but argue about the belief.  This is because atheism deals with belief, not knowledge.  There is no requirement to extend any claims to knowledge when dealing with atheism – theists are making the claims, let them demonstrate them as true.  In this light one can concurrently claim to be agnostic (not claiming knowledge either way) and atheist (I do not believe).  Extreme philosophical skepticism does not allow knowledge to truly …. well ….. be known, but that does not prevent a position of belief to be stated.  Nor is it accurate to conclude that because we cannot claim absolute knowledge that all beliefs are equally valid.  Such positions seem indefensible.

“Atheism is the rejection of theistic claims due to the lack of sufficient supporting evidence.”

In my mind atheism is not the claim there is no god, or the disbelief in god (which assumes there is a god to disbelieve in), or a set of tenants, rituals, or beliefs.  Atheism is the rejection of theistic claims due to the lack of sufficient supporting evidence.  Atheism is the result of skeptical inquiry into god hypothesis. Atheism is a conclusion. A rejection. A lack of a belief.  It’s certainly not a religion, but the antithesis of such.

So what am I?  I am a explicit, positive, weak, agnostic, practical, and theoretical atheist.

What are you?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/NaonTiotami NaonTiotami

    Great post, Andrew. Very well written.

    I, myself, am a positive, weak, agnostic, practical, and theoretical atheist as well, although, unlike you, I'm not all for being all explicit and exposing my body in public. ;)

    • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/madmanwoo Nathan

      Good post indeed. I hate when people use the "Atheism can't explain …." line, I'm like "here we go again".

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/NaonTiotami NaonTiotami

        It's a giant argument from ignorance, that's what that is.

        I think the argument from ignorance is the logical fallacy I hate the most, when encountered in real discussions. It just… gah, it pisses me right off.

      • AndrewFinden

        Generally, I find that people who write "Atheism can't explain…" really are talking about philosophical naturalism (which most atheists are, though not necessarily) or some other underlying philosophy.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

          Finally we agree on something. The phrase \”atheism can't explain….\” signifies atheism is something. Under my definition atheism is the lack of one particular belief, thus cannot be the basis for any other position.

          As an aside I would classify myself as a philosophical naturalist, but that does not preclude entities we currently consider supernatural. Anything we can demonstrate to exist must (by definition) be natural. Of course, this continually relegates the supernatural to the realms of the unknown.

          • AndrewFinden

            Anything we can demonstrate to exist must (by definition) be natural.

            I'm assuming you mean 'demonstrate' in the sense of 'scientifically'? That is of course, a kind of tautology, as science is by definition limited in scope to the natural realm – in effect you're saying, if our methods for exploring the natural realm can explore it, then it is natural. Where I see philosophical naturalism veering from empiricism to a philosophical assumption, or belief, is by assuming that if science can't deal with it, it must not be reality. I find this lacking, for instance if we consider the idea of purpose – no amount of scientific analysis of the physics and chemistry of Aunt Matilda's cake will tell you the purpose for which she baked it, for example, that requires some revelation on her part. I don't know if you do subscribe to this so-called 'Scientism' or not, however.

            • http://twitter.com/WatcherMastema @WatcherMastema

              I've seen "scientism" used a number of different ways (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism#Range_of_meanings). Can you specify what your definition of scientism is?

            • AndrewFinden

              from your link:

              It is used to criticize a totalizing view of science as if it were capable of describing all reality and knowledge, or as if it were the only true way to acquire knowledge about reality and the nature of things;

              That's a pretty good summary of what I mean by the term.
              John Lennox, Professor of Mathematics and Fellow in the Philosophy of Science at Oxford, writes of it like this:

              Peter Atkins gives a classic expression of this view: 'There is no reason to suppose that science cannot deal with every aspect of existence.' That, in a nutshell, is the essence of scientism

              Further, he writes:

              Scientism does not need to be refuted by external argument: it self-destructs… For, the statement that only science can lead to truth is not itself deduced from science. It is not a scientific statement but rather a statement about science, that is, it is a metascientific statement. Therefore, if scientism's basic principle is true, the statement expressing scientism must be false.

            • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

              Yes, I would mean empirically demonstrable. As I stated earlier, if something cannot be detected, then in what sense could we say it exists. This is the purpose of faith – belief without evidence, or in some cases to spite the evidence.

              Of course, this approach does not deny that things outside our experience absolutely do not exist, just that we cannot say either way. The issue is unanswerable and irrelevant (since such things have no effect).

              The inclusion of purpose in premature. First you should demonstrate there is a purpose before we can discuss what it might be. The purpose of a cake is determined by ourselves – mostly they are for eating. The \”purpose\” of the bacterial flagellum is to provide propulsion, but the \”purpose\” is a descriptive term of what it does, not evidence of intention.

              Let me ask you this: what possible purpose does an omnipotent being require the creation of a universe to achieve? If the answer is unknown or unknowable, then how could you say there is a purpose at all?

            • AndrewFinden

              Yes, I would mean empirically demonstrable. As I stated earlier, if something cannot be detected, then in what sense could we say it exists. This is the purpose of faith – belief without evidence, or in some cases to spite the evidence.

              Again, by 'detect' you seem to mean 'detect scientifically'.
              I also dispute the definition of faith as belief without evidence – that is not necessarily so, and in the Christian context I don't think you would find too many serious thinkers from any century defining it as such. Indeed, the NT writers tend to emphasise reasons why their readers should have faith (i.e. 'put their trust in')

              Of course, this approach does not deny that things outside our experience absolutely do not exist, just that we cannot say either way. The issue is unanswerable and irrelevant (since such things have no effect).

              While I would agree that God, as a supernatural agent is not scientifically detectable (as science's scope is the natural) that doesn't mean we can have no experience of him, as I'm sure most Christians would agree – the only way you can sustain your claim of lack of experience is if you assume a Scientistic ideology that denies the validity of other disciplines and experiences. While it is right that empirically we can not say either way, that doesn't mean there is no reason to have a position either way – indeed, we both seem to have made a position, albeit is opposite directions, despite this lack of empirical demonstration.

              The inclusion of purpose in premature. First you should demonstrate there is a purpose before we can discuss what it might be.

              No, the inclusion of the concept of purpose demonstrates the insufficiency of the Scientistic ideology. Purpose is one concept that no amount of scientific analysis can necessarily answer. That is not to say that in every case there must be a purpose, I simply refer to the concept, and as long as we can agree that for some things there is a purpose, then it is a concept that science cannot give the answer to.

              The purpose of a cake is determined by ourselves – mostly they are for eating.

              Actually, no amount of scientific examination of the physics and chemistry of a cake will tell you that it isfor eating, though it would no doubt tell us that it is possible to safely consume. To determine the purpose, broadly that it is for eating, requires other knowledge than physics and chemistry. More specifically, while it may be able to say that the icing is blue because of certain chemicals or pigments, it won't be able to say why it has blue icing instead of pink – and such investigation will certainly not be able to tell us who (if anyone) the cake was made for. That requires revelation – it requires Aunt Mildred herself to tell us that she made it for her nephew. What this analogy demonstrates is that there are questions which science is unable to answer – that is no insult to science, indeed, the opposite is so, claims the Nobel Prize (1960 – Physiology & Medicine) winner Sir Peter Medawar. He writes:

              There is no quicker way for a scientist to bring discredit upon himself and upon his profession than roundly to declare – particularly when no declaration of any kind is called for – that science knows, or soon will know, the answers to all questions worth asking, and that questions that do not admit a scientific answer are in some way non-questions of "pseudo-questions" that only simpletons ask and only the gullible profess to be able to answer… The existence of a limit to science is, however, made clear by its inability to answer childlike elementary questions such as: "How did everything begin?";"What are we all here for?"; "What is the point of living?".

              The "purpose" of the bacterial flagellum is to provide propulsion, but the "purpose" is a descriptive term of what it does, not evidence of intention.

              I agree – that's my point – no amount of scientific study of the thing itself can tell us anything beyond what it is and / or does – it can say nothing what it is 'for'.

              Let me ask you this: what possible purpose does an omnipotent being require the creation of a universe to achieve? If the answer is unknown or unknowable, then how could you say there is a purpose at all?

              You might just as well ask 'what possible purpose does an old Aunt require the baking of a cake to achieve?'. The answer is as I pointed out 'scientifically' unknowable, but that doesn't mean there is no purpose at all – it just means we have to rely on her revelation of that purpose. There may very well be no purpose to her cake, but the answer must come from her, and cannot come from scientific investigation of the cake itself.

            • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

              “Again, by 'detect' you seem to mean 'detect scientifically'. “

              Science observes reality. If you have another method of detection, then I would be interested to know what it is, how it works, and how you know it works.

              “I also dispute the definition of faith as belief without evidence…”

              If you have evidence, then what do you need faith for?

              “I don't think you would find too many serious thinkers from any century defining it as such.”

              “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” – Hebrews 11:1

              Nuff said.

              “While I would agree that God, as a supernatural agent is not scientifically detectable (as science's scope is the natural) that doesn't mean we can have no experience of him…”

              If a supernatural entity has an effect, we should be able to measure it. If we cannot, then how could you say it exists at all?

              “…the only way you can sustain your claim of lack of experience is if you assume a Scientistic ideology that denies the validity of other disciplines and experiences.”

              Show me another “ideology” that works and I will be interested.

              “we both seem to have made a position, albeit is opposite directions, despite this lack of empirical demonstration.”

              I have not made a decision, I do not believe due to the lack of empirical evidence.

              “No, the inclusion of the concept of purpose demonstrates the insufficiency of the Scientistic ideology.”

              Not really. We might say the “purpose” of a car is to move people around, or a crab’s shell provides protection, bit these are *descriptions* of their function.

              Don’t confuse this with design either. While we might design a car to transport people, there is no way we can determine if the crab’s shell was designed in the same manner. That’s the problem with inductive reasoning.

              “Actually, no amount of scientific examination of the physics and chemistry of a cake will tell you that it is for eating,”

              Your right – it won’t. We assign purpose to objects, it’s not granted to them by mystical beings.

              “To determine the purpose, broadly that it is for eating, requires other knowledge than physics and chemistry.”

              It sure does – the fact we have observed people cooking and eating them in the past. The fat we ourselves have seen and eaten cakes in the past and enjoyed them. Evidence.

              “More specifically, while it may be able to say that the icing is blue because of certain chemicals or pigments, it won't be able to say why it has blue icing instead of pink – and such investigation will certainly not be able to tell us who (if anyone) the cake was made for. That requires revelation…”

              Or you could ask the cook.

              “ – it requires Aunt Mildred herself to tell us that she made it for her nephew. What this analogy demonstrates is that there are questions which science is unable to answer – that is no insult to science…”

              That IS science.

              “The existence of a limit to science is, however, made clear by its inability to answer childlike elementary questions such as: "How did everything begin?";"What are we all here for?"; "What is the point of living?”.

              That does not grant you license to invent answers.

              “You might just as well ask 'what possible purpose does an old Aunt require the baking of a cake to achieve?'. The answer is as I pointed out 'scientifically' unknowable, but that doesn't mean there is no purpose at all – it just means we have to rely on her revelation of that purpose.”

              Are you setting up an equivocation error to claim spiritual “revelations” are the same as actually asking someone why they cooked a cake?

            • http://intensedebate.com/people/AndrewFinden AndrewFinden

              Science observes reality.

              That is true. But it is quite begging the question to suggest that either science is the only means to knowledge, or that only what science can observe constitutes reality. Indeed, those positions are self-refuting as they are not scientific statements themselves.

              If you have evidence, then what do you need faith for?

              If I put faith (i.e. trust) in a person, it is because of evidence and reason that I think they are trustworthy.

              Nuff said.

              And if anyone cared to actually read Hebrews 11 they would see that the writer goes to greath lengths to show how God has been faithful in the past and why they should have faith (i.e. trust) – notice how he concludes at the start of chapter 12:

              Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses….

              so you see the writer is in no way suggesting anything like your interpretation claims, quite the contrary.

              If a supernatural entity has an effect, we should be able to measure it. If we cannot, then how could you say it exists at all?

              Again, just an assertion of your Scientism: only science is the way to knowledge.

              Show me another “ideology” that works and I will be interested.

              One that allows for other disciplines like philosophy and literature would be a good start…

              I have not made a decision, I do not believe due to the lack of empirical evidence.

              So you do not believe that the universe is causally closed?

              Don’t confuse this with design either. While we might design a car to transport people, there is no way we can determine if the crab’s shell was designed in the same manner. That’s the problem with inductive reasoning.

              I don't believe I've said anything about "biological design", have I? In any case, it remains that no amount of physical and chemical investigation of a car will tell you it's purpose either, it will tell you that is moves, that it has a combustion engine and so forth – but you need to go beyond physics and chemistry to see that it is for driving people.

              Your right – it won’t. We assign purpose to objects, it’s not granted to them by mystical beings.

              So you acknowledge that in the context of a cake, an external causal agent who created it with a purpose is acceptable, but not in the case of the universe itself?

              It sure does – the fact we have observed people cooking and eating them in the past. The fat we ourselves have seen and eaten cakes in the past and enjoyed them. Evidence.

              Yes, it is evidence, but that is not empirical science, it is a different kind of evidence, sociological, but physics and chemistry it 'aint – and it brings in the big philosophical problem of induction. Indeed, this cake may be for throwing at local politicians in order to raise money!

              Or you could ask the cook.

              Yes, indeed – which is why I said "That requires revelation…”

              That IS science.

              No, it's not – it's personal revelation – you can't test it, you can simply either accept or reject her testimony.

              That does not grant you license to invent answers.

              I think there'd be plenty of philosophers who would object to your assertion that what they do is simply invent answers! (as indeed, Medawar concludes that it is to philosophy and theology that we must turn for answers to questions such as those)

              Are you setting up an equivocation error to claim spiritual “revelations” are the same as actually asking someone why they cooked a cake?

              how is it equivocation to compare one external agent revealing their purpose to another external agent revealing their purpose? (equivocation would be to say something like: He's a bright boy, so I better put on my sunglasses)

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/NaonTiotami NaonTiotami

            Agreed. :)

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  • http://twitter.com/WatcherMastema @WatcherMastema

    Nothing to complain about. It's a good, short overview of the topic. I'd like to make one suggestion, though.

    Have you considered writing an overview of your worldview? There are various atheistic worldviews, including Raelianism, some forms of Buddhism, Scientology, etc, but I find that many self-identifying atheists who are also involved in the skeptical movement would fall under some form of metaphysical naturalism. It's a big subject, so maybe you could make it into a series of posts on your particular worldview. Just an idea.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

      I started this article to address many witnessed who seemed very confused about what atheism was, or at least had a very different definition to the one I was using. While collating my thoughts I realized there was still confusion over the definition within philosophical, theological, and academic circles. This sparked the same idea as you just suggested.

      I need to write a series of articles (and I should also publish them as YouTube videos) on my philosophical world view. I need to understand and communicate how I have arrived at my current position so others can interrogate the logic and comprehend the definitions.

      In short: I like your idea.

      • http://twitter.com/WatcherMastema @WatcherMastema

        I'd suggest posting them as articles first, so that you can see what criticism and questions come up before you commit to making a video. I imagine you can edit posts after you post them, should any new information come along in comments.

        If you're interested in a book on metaphysical naturalism as a starting point, I suggest Richard Carrier's Sense and Goodness Without God: A Defense of Metaphysical Naturalism. There are plenty of books available on atheism in recent years, but not so many on naturalism as a worldview.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

          And here I was all motivated to create a new video this afternoon.

          • http://twitter.com/WatcherMastema @WatcherMastema

            Sorry. :(

            I was just thinking out loud what I'd prefer if I were doing it. It's a lot easier to make adjustments to print than video. It's also easier to make and respond to criticisms when you aren't limited to 160 characters.

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  • tirma

    Er… the opposite of an agnostic is not a Gnostic.

    People who call atheism a religion usually actually mean that it's an ideology. Which it is.

    • http://twitter.com/WatcherMastema @WatcherMastema

      Gnostic with a capital 'g' refers to "diverse, syncretistic religious movements in antiquity consisting of various belief systems generally united in the teaching that the cosmos was created by an imperfect god" (from wikipedia). Based on the context, it is clear that Andrew is not using Gnostic in that way. He is using it in reference to the etymology of gnostic and agnostic. They are based on the greek word 'gnostos,' which means '(to be) known.' So yes, in this context, agnostic IS the opposite of gnostic.

      What exactly is the atheist ideology, other than a lack of belief in a deity? Do Raelians, Objectivists, and Buddhists (depending on the type) share an ideology?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg
  • http://www.facebook.com/NRParsons Nathan Parsons

    I just happened upon this article: http://www.slate.com/id/2258484 which is attempting to explain agnosticism, however you soon realise that they have no sense of what atheism actually is.

  • BluePrint

    "In my mind atheism is not [...] the disbelief in god (which assumes there is a god to disbelieve in)"

    How can 'disbelief' assume there is a god? That would make it a theistic, not atheistic claim.
    If it was so, it would mean whoever states disbelief have reviewed irrefutable evidence for the existence of god(s), and is believing it to be false. The same way creationists are in regard to evidence for evolution.
    If disbelief is not despite irrefutable evidence, it's disbelieving the claim for the existence of god(s) with no assumptions.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

      If one holds the definition of atheism to mean "disbelief in a god", then you are correct in a sense. Some theists use this contradiction to point out how illogical atheism is, often saying things like:

      Atheists know there is a god, but deny his existence. So they really DO know a god exists and thus cannot be really atheists. This is why atheism is an illogical position. Everyone believes in God. Praise Jebus!

      This is exactly the reason I dislike the wording of that definition.

      • BluePrint

        So some theists don't know the meaning of the word 'disbelief', that doesn't mean their misunderstanding is the correct definition. Quite the opposite, I think.

        Personally, I would always choose the definition I think would promote discussion and allow me correct those misunderstandings.

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  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/skepdadblog skepdadblog

    Some atheists have also personally established, through examination of anthropological, socialogical and other scientific evidence, that there is good reason to suspect that gods are man made. While this does not explicitly countermand the existence of gods, which may exist anyway, it can help to forge a "stronger" atheist position; far from agnosticism with no taint of "belief".

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

      Except if you take an extreme sceptical position. It's the problem of induction – while all of our experience may indicate gods are man made, this says nothing about the nature of the things we do not know. This will always leave room for doubt – even if it's only theoretical doubt.

      • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/skepdadblog skepdadblog

        There's always doubt about everything. We could be living in the Matrix and everything could be an illusion. The smallest fundamental particle could be a tiny FSM. So what? Extreme skepticism adds nothing to the search for truth other than a disclaimer.

        I'm interested in the logical conclusions that observations of our universe lead to. If the universe is lying to me, there's nothing I can do about it, nor any way I can know it, so it's irrelevant.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

          I agree.

          In any case, this argument points to our knowledge not our beliefs. All of it is irrelevant to my definition of atheism.

    • http://twitter.com/WatcherMastema @WatcherMastema

      I can already imagine someone coming by and arguing that you're committing the genetic fallacy. You already touch on this criticism, but one effective way I've found is to point out that the wide variety of religions and differing beliefs in the world are better explained as man-made.

      It's a bit more of a stretch to argue that ALL religions are man-made except for the one the theist belongs to, or the far sillier possibility that all religions are products of Satan or whatever evil deity the religion believes exists. Theists can try, but it's special pleading.

      • http://www.facebook.com/anwyll David Gibson

        I'm generally in agreement with skepdadblog, I think that there is some usefulness to talking about each quadrant of the agnostic/gnostic theist/atheist paradigm the reality is there are degrees across the axes. Two people who self-identify as agnostic atheists might differ in the strength of their agnosticism (eg askegg and spekdadblog). However, this may practically manifest in virtually identical attitudes and pronouncements most of the time it reveals itself in discussion on definition and conviction.

        But this is a symptom of a greater point which I don't see address much online, our gnosticism or lackthereof varies depending on the nature of the deity in question. There are some gods which by definition we can reasonably expect to see evidence (given our current exploration and comprehension of reality) of this god's existence, if we find none then I think it is pragmatic (and honest) to take a gnostic position. I do this with the Christian God of scripture on multiple levels with multiple reasons, I say with conviction and confidence this god does not exist. I don't however say the god an acquaintence might profess belief in doesn't exist because by its definition I can't reasonably expect evidence for its existence but I remain an agnostic atheist because I find none still. However,usually these 'undetectable' gods leave me wondering what the point in believing in them is because an expectation of evidence is very often, but not necessarily, linked to importance on how our lives are supposed to be conducted, a lack of expectation of evidence is usually due to a lack of relevance.

        To me the question about whether all religions are man-made is rather redundant, all the evidence suggests this to be the case. I accept this is logically akin to proclaiming all swans white, which was fine until a pom turned up in Australia and saw some black ones. It could be there is a religion which is not man-made but until I see evidence to suggest this (which obviously would entail evidence for a deity and its involvement in human affairs) I see no value in holding out such judgement. The only reason I see for maintaining such a veneer is to appear more open minded than you really are.

        Induction isn't pragmatically a problem when there is nowhere to deduct from. The only time induction is an issue is if you want to philosophically pontificate in order to placate theists in order to soften the blow of more damaging critiques of their position. Which I'm not particularly interested in.

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/incredulidadracional Daniel

    I agree we need to look at the definitions but I disagree about the one you propose. I would rather say:

    “Atheism is the rejection of theistic claims due to their lack of concern for evidence.”

    Atheism thus understood would be even stronger than the positive atheism you propose in article because it does not even knowledge such a thing as a "god hypothesis". To my knowledge nobody has seriously proposed such an hypothesis -that is, an empirically testable conjecture presumed to have some predictive or explanatory power. Theism cannot even be wrong because it lacks any empirical content; it is, to say it with Popper, unfalsifiable.

    It's a bit like the Presbiterians response to Cromwell upon his victory, which he claimed to prove Providence's favor but , alas, it was only a test of faith to the Presbiterians. What can you say to that? No argument is possible against the views of one who does not answer to reasons, especially between two fanatics. And Cromwell's dispute wasn't exactly settled peacefully by argument, it was settled by arms, like all religious dogmas.

    Theism is based on faith and faith is impervious to reason. That is enough to reject it without further considerations about notions of evidence from modern science and the scientific method. These are an anachronisms anyway when we are dealing with bronze age beliefs bequeathed from illiterate Middle East peoples.

    If I do not qualify as an atheist perhaps I am then an anti-theist.

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