Godless Business

2.5 – PZ Myers

This week the team sits down for a chat with PZ Myers (Pharyngula).  Naturally we talk about “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed” (which I mistakenly called “no design allowed”), Crackergate and the finer details of transubstantiation and the Jewish blood libel, pets with souls, potential theocratic American futures, the Global Atheist Conference (held in Melbourne), and banning the burka.

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  • James R Palmer II

    The burqua is tricky but may I suggest this Christopher Hitchens article- http://www.slate.com/id/2253493/?from=rss.
    I must see the face or I will be scared.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

      I'll back almost anything written by Hitchens :)

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/AndrewFinden AndrewFinden

      I wonder how many burqa-wearing women he actually asked? I read a number of columns in the UK last week on this issue, including interviews with a number of women who do freely choose to wear it without any prompting from family. While there are issues involved, particularly in places where identification is an issue, but what someone chooses to wear walking down the street is up to them – the state has no placing telling people what body parts they cannot cover up. No doubt there are women being forced into wearing it, but banning them is not the answer (it's somewhat like a clothing version of the great Australian internet filter!) the deeper issues must be dealt with.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

        Women who "choose to wear the burka" are doing so for brain damaged reasons. Modesty for females alone is misogynistic – why do similar rules not exist for the men?

        Don't forget these woman are also choosing to wear a burka in a society which allows the choice in the first place. Go to a country where the rule of law and the religion are one and the same (Saudi Arabia for example) to see what choices really exist – there are none. Anyone who says these women really have a choice are doing an horrible injustice to the oppressed women of these countries.

        Having said that, I do not like imposing cultural rules dictating what people can or cannot wear. If some idiotic woman want to wear a blanket over her head I won't stop her. However, I will tell her she is doing so for moronic reasons.

        • AndrewFinden

          Women who "choose to wear the burka" are doing so for brain damaged reasons.

          I'd forgotten that anyone who holds an opposing view to you is automatically assumed to be mentally disabled…

          Modesty for females alone is misogynistic – why do similar rules not exist for the men?

          If there's a rule, then it's not choice, is it! If some women are choosing freely to wear it, then there is no rule for them to do so. I agree that a rule to do so is wrong, but if a woman chooses to wear it out of her own volition (as some do) then who are we to say she can't?

          Don't forget these woman are also choosing to wear a burka in a society which allows the choice in the first place.

          Well, yes, that's the point – our 'western' societies allow such choice, and rightly so – such laws as the French one are not in line with that.

          Go to a country where the rule of law and the religion are one and the same (Saudi Arabia for example) to see what choices really exist – there are none. Anyone who says these women really have a choice are doing an horrible injustice to the oppressed women of these countries.

          But we're not talking about women in Saudi Arabia or Taliban-led Afgahnistan; we're talking about women in France (and the UK and Australia). Sure, there are no doubt those in these countries who are pressured into wearing it (though the number of women in France who wear the burqa is only a couple of thousand – a very small minority) but it is equally an injustice to say that women in these countries who freely choose to wear a piece of clothing are doing so because of a mental disability. If, as I suspect is the case, you are simply using the term 'brain damaged' as a pejorative term, then you do a great injustice to people with mental disabilities.

          If some idiotic woman want to wear a blanket over her head I won't stop her. However, I will tell her she is doing so for moronic reasons.

          Hey.. if you've got a problem with someone choosing to wear a burqa, simple: don't wear one.

          Rather than call people names for wearing something they feel stops them being objectified, or because they might feel some cultural or religious obligation, I'd rather speak out against the cause of their concern.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/askegg askegg

            I'd forgotten that anyone who holds an opposing view to you is automatically assumed to be mentally disabled…

            I said the reasons where brain damaged, not the people. Of course, you have a long history of crying persecution so I should not expect anything less. Perhaps it's a Christian thing?

            If there's a rule, then it's not choice, is it!

            That's why I disagree with the laws banning the burka – not that I expect you actually read the entire comment before running your mouth off.

            …to say that women in these countries who freely choose to wear a piece of clothing are doing so because of a mental disability

            I did not say that. However, thinking the all mighty creator of the universe wants you to wear a sack is not terrible bright, is it?

            Rather than call people names for wearing something they feel stops them being objectified.

            What is wrong with being admired? The female body is a beautiful thing and should be honoured. However, to impose cultural or religious reasons for women to cover themselves because the men can't keep their dicks in their pants is …. well ….. stupid.

            Do you think women lust after men? I know quite a few who do and I don't see a problem with a healthy attitude toward sexuality. It's only the religious or the celibate who seem to have some sick obsession.

            • AndrewFinden

              I said the reasons where brain damaged, not the people.

              Excuse me for thinking that holding a 'brain'damaged idea' implied that the idea holder's brain was thus damaged. In any case, the use of mental disability as a form of pejorative (whether towards a person or an idea – and this is not your first offence!) is an unfair and offensive slight on people with mental disabilities.

              That's why I disagree with the laws banning the burka – not that I expect you actually read the entire comment before running your mouth off.

              Where did I say you didn't disagree? Your question was about rules, and I pointed out that I was talking about women making a choice in a situation where it wasn't a rule. Maybe you should take your own advice about reading comments before running your mouth off.

              However, thinking the all mighty creator of the universe wants you to wear a sack is not terrible bright, is it?

              Have you read anything written by women who freely choose to wear a burqa?
              In any case, I don't like to make assumptions about the intelligence of people whom I simply disagree with.

              However, to impose cultural or religious reasons for women to cover themselves because the men can't keep their dicks in their pants is …. well ….. stupid.

              I agree that it's wrong and misguided – and again, I wasn't talking about anyone imposing it – I was referring to women who choose to wear a burqa because they feel they are being objectified. Nor did I say anything about my own thoughts of admiration. I'm simply pointing out that if a woman feels she is being objectified, it is her right to wear clothes that make her feel liberated from that, even if you and I don't agree or relate to her way of thinking.

              You seem to have made the mistake of thinking that I'm defending the imposition of burqa wearing! On the contrary, I don't like it, and I'm opposed to the imposition of it – rather, I am defending the right of some women who choose to wear it for their own reasons.

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/ollieography ollieography

    Sorry but whilst it is a tool for men of the one and only religion that uses it as a form of female subjugation then I say ban it. Till the day comes that all women of that particular faith can wear it freely and take it off freely without fear of some kind of backlash from men and other family members it needs to be removed from the equation all together.
    Then we can look at the deeper issues. And I doubt very much that most women actually like wearing it. I can't imagine anyone liking it. Even the most devout pios women even.

    • AndrewFinden

      I doubt very much that most women actually like wearing it. I can't imagine anyone liking it. Even the most devout pios women even.

      And how many have you asked?

      I don't like it, but I cannot deny the testimonies I've read that some women in the UK find it liberating.

      Till the day comes that all women of that particular faith can wear it freely and take it off freely without fear of some kind of backlash from men and other family members it needs to be removed from the equation all together.

      As I understand it, it is more cultural than intrinsic to Islamic faith, pertaining to a particular school of Islam (though I forget which one). In any case, in France, and the UK, it is a very small minority who actually wear it, and even within families, it's easy to see that some wear it and some don't.

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44 – An Atheist Temple

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