William Lane Craig was right!

I am about to do something I have rarely seen a theologian do: Admit I was wrong. William Lane Craig was right.

On the 12th April 2011 I posted a video accusing William Lane Craig of a fallacious argument, of which he was not guilty. I retract the criticism and apologise for my rash and premature attack. However, there are a number of other aspects to William Lane Craig’s argument I wish to highlight.

The hand puppet is correct. For the sake of THIS particular debate we should accept the existence of a god. What William Lane Craig is arguing for is that a god is necessary for objective morality to exist.

However, the structure of this conditional concerns me. There are two articles referenced in this syllogism; God and objective morality. Each may or may not exist, giving rise to four states:

  1. God exists.
  2. God does not exist.
  3. Objective morality exists.
  4. Objective morality does not exist.

Combining these we arrive at four possibilities:

  1. God exists and objective morality exists.
  2. God exists and objective morality does not exist.
  3. God does not exist, but objective morality does.
  4. God does not exist, and neither does objective morality.

In William Lane Craig’s opening statement he places two of these on the table:

  1. God exists and objective morality exists.
  2. God does not exist, and neither does objective morality.

This is a false dichotomy and implies objective morality cannot exist without god. William Lane Craig does not go on to adequately demonstrate how he discounted the two possibilities he doesn’t mention. Essentially, William Lane Craig is stacking the deck from the outset.

Nor does he demonstrate the link between god’s existence and objective morality, he merely assert it. Well, kind of – he spends a lot of time asserting atheism has no grounds for objective morality, therefore god does (although this does not follow at all). Indeed, one can imagine a number of scenarios in which both god and objective morality do exist, but have nothing to do with each other. An evil or indifferent god, or a God who sources his morality from elsewhere both pull the rug from under WLC. Sam Harris does raise this point later in the debate.

In response, all William Lane Craig seems to be able to do is repeatedly assert

“Atheism has no basis for objective morality.” – William Lane Craig

Of course, WLC is technically correct on this point because atheism is purely the disbelief in deities, but we’l let that slide and assume WLC actually means humanism, or materialism. He seems to mix the term up anyway.

The knock down argument Sam Harris mentions (and IMHO should have spent much more time addressing) is Euythoro’s dilemma. William Lane Craig is arguing god is the source of all morality. However the moral decision of god are entirely subjective by defition. As a thinking entity who will judge your life after you die to determine your eternal fate, god determines what constitutes morality and what does not. Despite being a deity, this is no more valid than picking any individual at random and asserting their morality is objective and everyone else’s must therefore be subjective in comparison. Anyone who cannot see the obvious flaws in this argument are not thinking hard enough.

So I will be removing the original video immediately.


  • http://thingsfindothinks.com AndrewFinden

    Shame you couldn't just admit your mistake without that little bit of tu quoque about theologians, but nice to see you do sometimes admit your mistakes ;)

    Did you send this to Craig? (He's responded to what you call your 'knock-down' argument in the past, as I recall -.
    I can see the apparent flaws, but if you've assumed they are unresolvable, perhaps you're not thinking hard enough.. see what I did there? ;p)

    Can you define subjective and objective as you are using them?

    Also, that Craig says God's existence is a "sound basis" and that God's non-existence gives no "sound basis" for objective moral values and duties. I'm not so sure that's quite the same as him saying it's "necessary". He seems to be speaking more about whether accepting the existence of moral values and duties is more justified if God exists compared to if he doesn't exist (at least, from the short clips you've provided).

    Given that people like Dawkins make it very clear that he agrees with Craig's contention in having written about the universe having no right or wrong or justice etc., I'd be interested to know if you agree with Dawkins and thus, Craig's second contention? And if that's so, how could humanism etc. have a sound basis for objective moral values and duties?

    • http://www.godless.biz/ askegg

      Read Sam Harris's book "The Moral Landscape".

      • http://thingsfindothinks.com AndrewFinden

        Should I assume, when I get around to reading it, that you pretty much agree wholesale with Harris? Are you saying that Harris shows how "humanism etc." provides a sound basis for objective moral values and duties (i.e. is that the aim of his book..? I read somewhere that he isn't actually arguing for 'objective' morality per se)? I'll try and move it up my reading list ;)

        Could you, for the moment, please define what you mean by objective and subjective in regards to moral values and duties?

  • Cynskeptical

    If you ask me, which of course I know you won't, information mixed with the ability to communicate as a species is the bases for all morality. No god required there.

  • Paul Murray

    Is there a link to the original? The usual sitiuation when christians make this kind of argument (in the absense of the video, I am assuming he is making the usual arguments) are

    1) The christian *defines* "sure foundation for morality" as meaning "god gives it to us". Their position is, if it ain't from a god, then it don't count. To that, all you can do is throw your hands up and point out that they are gaggin the debate. You can target the jargon: "sure foundation" is jargon. What exactly does WCL mean by this?

    2) There are other "objective" grounds for morality than coming from a god. Morality arises from *human nature*, which is in our genes. It got into our genes because we are social animals, and societies only work (and help to ensure that their individials perpetuate thier genes) when everyone behaves in certain ways. 8There's* your objective source for moral values.

    3) Lets say that it's true that because there's no God, there's no objective basis for morality. Replies include:

    3a) So whaddaya going to do? Cry about it? "Boo-hoo! Life has no meaning! There's no right and wrong!". Harden up, for f***'s sake!

    3b) Why yes, and this is exactly what we observe. Some people think it's right to perfrom clitorectomies and keep slaves, other people thik it's wrong. Once again, we find that the world looks exactly like there is no God.

    And finally, go on the attack:

    4) If there's a God out there, defining objective morality, and a Holy Spirit living inside each christian as a teacher and counsellor, how come christians disagree on right and wrong? Why are Christians even debating about gays being christians or women being priests – can't God just tell 'em and be done with it? Does he really suck that badly as a communicator?

    5) And at this point, you can also drag out the various Old testament laws and atrocities.

    Job done.

  • http://thinkingdoesnthurt.blogspot.com/ David_Gibson

    I think the reason Craig 'stacked the deck' as you put it is because Harris wasn't arguing against the existence of an objective morality, consider it sneaky if you will.

    I haven't read Harris' book yet, it is sitting in my reading stack, but I think he would do better to not call his version of morality 'objective'. As best as I can tell, the moral assumption is to maximise happiness and minimise suffering and there are actions and states which are objectively contrary to this goal. It doesn't matter if every human alive agrees with these moral goals, it doesn't make them objective. Subjective multiplied by 6 billion does not equal objective.

    But that isn't what Craig, or most Christians mean when they say 'objective morality' because at the end of the day Harris' position is subjective, it relies on a subjective view on what the moral goals should be.

    However, I'm not clear on what Christians actually mean when they say 'objective morality' because whatever God's morality is it ultimately depends on his goals and thus we end up with the same structure as the Harris approach, some actions and states are objectively contrary to God's goals.

    In this sense I am left concluding that 'objective morality' is analogous to married bachelors and square circles. There is no objective morality, only actions and states which are objectively contrary to the subjective goals and preferences of the mind in question. Just because God has the power and capacity to reward or punish us for taking actions or enacting states which are contrary or aligned with his goals doesn't make them objective. The power to enforce your goals on others does not equate to objectivity because objectivity is required (by definition) to be independent of any mind or dispassionate and unemotional (something I'm not sure any mind can truly be).

    Objectivity is not determined by popularity and it isn't determined by power or capacity, what is left? Perspective perhaps? God is omniscient right? Doesn't matter, God's morality is still dependent on his mind and that isn't objective.

    I just can't see how Christians or any theist can claim their God is the source of an objective morality, it just doesn't make sense when you unpack what an 'objective morality' has to be. Unless they're going to claim God is somehow dispassionate and untouched by his personal emotions when determining his moral goals and desires or that God actually isn't a mind of some sort it can't be done.

    Now Findo and I have had a pretty lengthy discussion about objective morality and he has claimed that by applying a subjective morality to others it becomes objective because it doesn't rely on their minds. Except it still depends on the mind of the applicant, even if they die, even if they leave existence, the morality has never ceased being the creation of a mind and is thus still subjective. Now the consequence of this does seem to be that nothing is objectively wrong, only wrong objectively according to subjective moral goals and desires, true. This also means in practice that a tyranny of moral majority is what occurs in human societies, yes I think this happens. Are these situations how I would prefer things to be? Not necessarily but my preference for reality has no bearing on what reality actually is and sometimes I think arguments about morality are not so much arguments about how reality works but how we wished reality worked.

    • http://www.godless.biz/ askegg

      There is nothing Earth shattering I find in your (as usual) excellent reply.

      Not to give the plot away, but Sam Harris argues the flourishing of conscious creatures in firmly rooted in material reality. This dovetails neatly into the view consciousness is the software of the brain; not something distinct from the hardware/neurones. Given their is a continuum of states between ultimate pain and utopia in which conscious creatures could live, then we may have breached the "is ought" problem.

      Of course then question then becomes "why should a conscious creature desire pleasure rather than pain", which Sam Harris humorously calls "hitting philosophical bedrock with the shovel of a stupid question." Theists have the same issue to contend with – why is god the way he is rather than something else? At this point there seems to be little difference between the positions, but that's another debate.


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